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Critique #4 Re: A Critique of Prof. Hubert Dreyfus' "Why Heideggerian AI failed"- a call for comments

by "Isaac" <groups@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Nov 17, 2008 at 01:00 PM

All, here is a 4th installment of my very many critiques of this paper. 
Again, not all
issues will resonate with everyone so pick and choose what you find 
interesting to
debate pro/con and I will defend any of my comments, and even Dreyfus if 
your critique is weak.

I will post the paragraph(s) I have a comment about, and highlight the
particular words at issue by enclosing them between "***" characters. 
I'll
also include citations in the paper when helpful. I seek (intelligent and
informed) technical/theoretical critique or feedback from anyone on the
issue(s) presented/raised.

See page 14, line 1:

VII. Modeling Situated Coping as a Dynamical System

Describing the phenomenon of everyday coping as being "geared into" the 
world and moving towards "equilibrium" suggests a dynamic relation between

the coper and the environment.  Timothy van Gelder calls this dynamic 
relation between coper and environment coupling, explaining its im****tance

as follows:

The fundamental mode of interaction with the environment is not to
represent 
it, or even to exchange inputs and outputs with it; rather, the relation
is 
better understood via the technical notion of coupling. ...

The post-Cartesian agent manages to cope with the world without
necessarily 
representing it.  A dynamical approach suggests how this might be possible

by showing how the internal operation of a system interacting with an 
external world can be ***so subtle and complex as to defy description in 
representational terms -- how, in other words, cognition can transcend 
representation***[asb1] . [i]

Van Gelder shares with Brooks the i existentialist claim that thinking
such 
as problem solving,is grounded in a more basic relation of body and world.

As van Gelder puts it:

Cognition can, in sophisticated cases, [such as breakdowns, problem
solving, 
and abstract thought] involve representation and sequential processing;
but 
such phenomena are best understood as emerging from a dynamical substrate,

rather than as constituting the basic level of cognitive performance.[ii]

This ***dynamical substrate***[asb2]  is precisely the causal basis of the

skillful coping first described by Heidegger and worked out in detail by 
Merleau-Ponty and Todes.

Van Gelder im****tantly contrasts the rich interactive tem****ality of 
real-time on-line coupling of coper and world with the austere step by
step 
tem****ality of thought.  Wheeler helpfully explains:

***[W]hilst the computational architectures proposed within computational 
cognitive science require that inner events happen in the right order, and

(in theory) fast enough to get a job done***[asb3] , there are, in
general, 
no constraints on how long each operation within the overall cognitive 
process takes, or on how long the gaps between the individual operations 
are.  Moreover, the transition events that characterize those inner 
operations are not related in any systematic way to the real-time dynamics

of either neural biochemical processes, non-neural bodily events, or 
environmental phenomena (dynamics which surely involve rates and 
rhythms).[iii]

Computation is thus paradigmatically austere:

Turing machine computing is digital, deterministic, discrete, effective
(in 
the technical sense that behavior is always the result of an
algorithmically 
specified finite number of operations), and tem****ally austere (in that
time 
is reduced to mere sequence).[iv]

***Ironically, Wheeler's highlighting the contrast between rich dynamic 
tem****al coupling and austere computational tem****ality enables us to see 
clearly that his appeal to extended minds as a Heideggerian response to 
Cartesianism leaves out the essential tem****al character of embodied 
embedding.  Clarke's and Chalmers's examples of extended minds
manipulating 
representations such as notes and pictures are clearly cases of tem****al 
austerity-no rates and rhythms are involved***[asb4].

Wheeler is aware of this possible objection to his backing both the 
dynamical systems model and the extended mind approach.  He asks: "What 
about the apparent clash between continuous reciprocal causation and
action 
orientated representations?  On the face of it this clash is a worry for
our 
emerging cognitive science."[v]  But instead of engaging with the 
incompatibility of these two opposed models of ground level intelligence, 
Wheeler suggests that we must somehow combine them and that "this question

is perhaps one of the biggest of the many challenges that lie ahead."[vi]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MY CRITIQUES indexed by my initials "ASB" followed by the number of my 
comment above:
 [asb1]again.  You are exactly describing a classical neural network,
which 
"suffers" from this defying description "problem".  Per my comments above,

your "coupling" explanation does not create further distance from a mental

representation system, it actually increases your closeness to it.  The
only 
difference between your coupling scheme and a typical "representational" 
system is that couple distributes the representation over many processing 
units such that it is not clear how to extract what those nodes "know". 
Yet, the fact one cannot not use ones mind to describe distributed 
information does not mean, of course, that the distributed representation
of 
the information is any less a (mental) representation.  That is one reason

why hierarchical neural networks have never been able to be effectively 
implemented.  AI researchers are thinking of "central" representation 
schemes like you are, even though neural nets are unlabeled distributed 
systems.  The urge to centralize meaning is too strong for both
philosophers 
and AI researchers.

 [asb2]You and brooks share this hierarchical notion of mental process. 
He 
is using it to focus on centralized "mental representations" and you are 
using it to prove that they do not exist.  Seems to me that you both are
way 
off- fighting Don Quixote's windmills... the world is much flatter than
you 
think...

 [asb3]Again, here you are completely ignoring Neural Networks and Genetic

algorithms (which are global, parallel AI computational architectures), 
which are a significant part of AI. You do mention Nuns below, but you
seem 
to focus your arguments only on classic AI and Brooks as a modern variant.

 [asb4]I don't see how embodied embedding escapes the brittle nature of 
mental representations.  The body and its interactions with the mental 
system can be likewise computationally modeled along with extended minds 
manipulating representations.  Rates and rhythms are just computational 
artifacts of distributed processing scheme.  Tem****al austerity is not a 
requirement of digital computing system, just a result of poor design and 
lack of imagination.  Dynamic tem****al coupling is, again, easily done by 
classical (tem****al) neural network architectures (implemented on a
digital 
system, of course).  This is not the problem.  Extracting/manipulating the

distributed representational (meaning) information of the parallel 
processing node into hierarchical neural networks is what I believe has 
completely blocked them from implementing much of this dynamically
coupled, 
absorbed coping philosophy you espouse.  However, none of this requires an

"embodied embedding", which seems to be just thrown in as an answer to a 
wrong problem.  The problem of centralized (mental) representations is not

that they are disembodied, but that the world is made of atoms and not 
well-behaved black boxes.  Even if centralized (mental) representation AI 
were to incor****ate "embodied embedding" in a dynamically tem****ally
coupled 
"absorbed coping" paradigm, they will not escape the brittleness of
top-down 
design, which embodied embedding does not mandate otherwise.  Bottom-up, 
full system, design, as mentioned above, if beyond the capabilities of 
current AI researchers.  In this way, "embodied embedding" seem to be a 
red-hearing that intellectually misses the real problem, but in the 
confusion, seems, on the surface, to add to the discussion.  BTW, how is 
sensor modeling (which all AI/robotics work must do) different from 
"embodied embedding" in that they model sensors that are very similar to 
those of humans (eyes, skin, nose, ears, etc.)  Classic AI never used 
sensors, just logic.  However, modern AI's embodiment of our senses into
its 
systems has not brought them much any closer to making AI systems that are

robust and not brittle.  I do not think adding a physical body aspect to
the 
AI will fair any better.  Can you argue otherwise in the context of the 
sensory embedded embodiment that AI has already done?






 CITATIONS MADE IN THE ABOVE QUOTED SECTION OF THE PAPER:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[i] Van Gelder, "Dynamics and Cognition", Mind Design II, John Haugeland, 
Ed., A Bradford Book, (Cambridge, MA: The MIT Press, 1997), 439, 448.

[ii]  Ibid.

[iii]  Michael Wheeler, "Change in the Rules: Computers, Dynamical
Systems, 
and Searle," in Views into the Chinese Room: New Essays on Searle and 
Artificial Intelligence, John Preston and Mark Bishop, Eds, (Oxford: 
Clarendon Press, 2002), 345.

[iv]  Ibid. 344, 345.

[v] Wheeler, Reconstructing the Cognitive World, 280.

[vi] Ibid.


Ariel Bentolila

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 1 Posts in Topic:
Critique #4 Re: A Critique of Prof. Hubert Dreyfus' "Why Heidegg
"Isaac" <gro  2008-11-17 13:00:58 

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